02 Building Your Brand from the Inside Out

In this episode, Jo Day and Lucy Rennie dive into the heart of what makes a business truly memorable and successful—building a brand from the inside out. Many people think branding is just about logos and taglines, but Lucy breaks down why the core of a sustainable, impactful brand starts much deeper.

Whether you’re a business owner, a team leader, or just curious about branding, this episode offers actionable insights to help you create a brand that resonates and builds loyalty with your customers.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• Why branding is about more than logos and visuals.
• How to navigate a VUCA (volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous) world in business.
• The importance of vision, values, and purpose in building a sustainable brand.
• Real-life examples of businesses thriving through an inside-out approach.
• How to engage employees and customers authentically to build trust and loyalty.

Key Takeaways:

1. Start with Clarity: Define your vision and purpose. Why does your business exist, and what’s the ultimate goal?
2. Identify Core Values: Align your decisions and actions with these values to ensure authenticity and consistency.
3. Engage Your Team: Involve employees in shaping and living your brand values. Shared purpose leads to better teamwork and stronger customer relationships.
4. Focus on Customer Experience: Build your brand by making customers feel valued. This emotional connection fosters repeat business and word-of-mouth referrals.
5. Create from the Inside Out: Your external brand identity—logo, tagline, messaging—should reflect the internal culture and values of your business.

Actionable Steps for Listeners:

1. Reflect on your “tummy flip” moments—what excites you most about your business?
2. Identify your top five values using a timer or playlist to make the process fun and instinctive.
3. Imagine your customers’ feedback as if you were a fly on the wall. Are they saying what you hope they would? If not, adjust your processes to align with your brand goals.

Resources Mentioned:
📜 Values Exercise: https://brenebrown.com/resources/dare-to-lead-list-of-values/ 
📖 Clarity, Communication and Connection by Lucy Rennie: https://tinyurl.com/46jv5d4n
🎨 Design tools like Canva: https://www.canva.com 

Join the Conversation:
💬 What are your top five values? How do they shape your business or brand? Share your insights in the comments or on social media using the hashtag #CreativeJourneysPodcast!

Next Episode Preview:
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Connect with Jo Day:

• Hey Up Folks! 👋🏻 Website - https://www.heyupfolks.com
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• Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jo-day-a5b409321/

Connect with Lucy Rennie:

• Website: https://www.iamlucyrennie.com/
• Lucy on Instagram: http://instagram.com/iamlucyrennie
• Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucyrennie1/

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Episode 2
• 1:48 What Does Building a Brand from the Inside Out Mean?
• 3:24 Understanding a VUCA World
• 4:53 How Customer Expectations Have Shifted
• 5:38 Three Steps to Building a Strong Brand
• 8:18 Making Values Tangible for Teams
• 10:29 Real-World Example: Building a Quality-Driven Team
• 13:34 Customer Loyalty Through Emotional Connection

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jo Day: Hey folks. When people hear brand, they often think logo or tagline and that's not the case. Lucy is going to share her expertise with us today on building your brand from the inside out and why logo and tagline It's just a small element of that. So I'm Jo Day.

[00:00:30] Lucy Rennie: And I'm Lucy Rennie. 

[00:00:32] Jo Day: And we're going to dive right in.

[00:00:34] Jo Day: So Lucy, tell me about building a brand from the inside out. 

[00:00:40] Lucy Rennie: I think, jo, do you know what, this is my favorite topic. And I've realized that I am such a massive believer for, people building amazing brands and. How to do that?

[00:00:52] Lucy Rennie: Very often when we think about brands, we associate it just with logos, like you said, like with strap lines, with colors. There's loads of things where I can think about that, but actually a real brand, a real successful sustainable brand is one that makes people feel something. It's one that creates loyalty where people just don't want to go anywhere else.

[00:01:10] Lucy Rennie: A bit like my husband who loves Heinz tomato ketchup and will not Good choice. Will not let me buy Aldi's, even though I know that I actually put it, I buy the Aldi's and put it in the Heinz bottle and leave it in the fridge. So he's not on the wiser until he listens to this episode, but building a brand I genuinely believe has to start on the inside out.

[00:01:33] Lucy Rennie: And what I mean by that is it has to start with the vision. It has to start with the leader. It has to start with, why we're doing something. And the reason why this, for me, is so important, and even more important right now, is since COVID, since, these last few years, where we've suddenly started working and living in this kind of VUCA world, where everything's changing, we've moved away from the madmen, society.

[00:02:00] Jo Day: Just for anybody who's not familiar, yeah, just for anyone not familiar with VUCA. Can you explain what VUCA is for anybody who's heard that phrase for the first time? 

[00:02:10] Lucy Rennie: Yeah, really, yeah, good point. So for anyone who doesn't know what VUCA means, and it's something really that's just become, a thing really since, for over the last sort of four or five years, really since the COVID pandemic and then everything else that happened with that.

[00:02:26] Lucy Rennie: You talked last episode about the energy crisis and, the war in Ukraine and all the different things, but basically to live in a volatile world, so a VUCA world is volatile, uncertain. Complex and then all the ambiguity that goes with it. So basically when people after Covid said, oh, we're gonna get back to normal, what is the new normal?

[00:02:45] Lucy Rennie: The normal is actually the fact that we don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what's what's gonna be thrown at us next. And I think that's the key in terms of future proof in your business and all those things that I always hop on about. It's being able to withstand anything so that we can be flexible and agile and all those things.

[00:03:01] Lucy Rennie: So the reason I was talking about VUCA World was because also what's happening since COVID and all those things is that people, people want more. From a brand than maybe in, in the old and I want to say the olden days, I was around at the olden days, but where we used to believe these or take everything that people said for granted, it was all about advertising.

[00:03:22] Lucy Rennie: It was all about these big billboards and having these famous people, wearing the brands or, talking about the brands. Whereas I think now there's been a real shift and we can see it in the generations, the later generations is. People want to know what the brand stands for.

[00:03:39] Lucy Rennie: People want to know what's behind the brand. People want to know why they should buy from you. People want to know what the story is. People want to know who's the, person, who's the face. Who is it that's behind the brand? Because I think there's been so much bullshit as well in terms of Greenwashing where people are saying, brands are saying that they're doing one thing, but actually it's just tokenism and they're not really actually going deep into the conversation.

[00:04:04] Lucy Rennie: And again, I think that's probably a topic we can move on to on another day. But I think for now, in terms of thinking really simply about how to build a brand, that genuinely does what it says and that people want to buy from again and again. I think there's three steps. The first step is all about clarity.

[00:04:24] Lucy Rennie: So it comes down to really understanding. Why are you doing what you're doing? What the purpose is? So what, are you actually trying to achieve? What's the ultimate goal for the brand? Whether that is to, change the world and eliminate child hunger or child poverty. So something that's big on that scale, or whether it's just simply to create the best chicken sandwich in the Northwest of England.

[00:04:49] Lucy Rennie: Yeah. But getting really clear on that and then understanding and identifying what the values are. So how are you going to do that? What are you going to do in terms of whether that's in. There's a lot of talk about buzzwords like Integrity today or Authenticity. For me, they're a given. I think it's more about understanding.

[00:05:06] Jo Day: Can I just chip in there? Whenever I see somebody using the word Integrity or Authenticity, it literally makes me skin crawl because if you were acting in Integrity and if you were acting authentically. You wouldn't need to keep saying it, like it is a given. So I always have a red flag whenever I see anything online or somebody's written anything and they have to tell you that they're in working in integrity and that they're authentic.

[00:05:41] Jo Day: There's a red flag for me. 

[00:05:43] Lucy Rennie: And yeah, I agree with you on that. I think, but I think it's really important for me to, once you've defined kind of the vision, where you, what you're trying to achieve and then really working on, what your values are. It helps you almost, for me, that's your strategy.

[00:06:01] Lucy Rennie: Yes, we can then create a roadmap and an action plan, all those things. But actually, if you can get that right. It helps you to then make informed decisions moving forward because you're going to ask yourself whether that's aligned, whether doing going down one road or another, or choosing to collaborate with that person or to buy those products or to sell in a certain way or whatever it might be.

[00:06:25] Lucy Rennie: I genuinely believe that if you've got your vision and your values in place, and you've got your vision, they're true to you and your business, you can actually, make informed decisions on that, and you can actually move forward and grow an amazing business based on that. It also, yeah, of course, I 

[00:06:42] Jo Day: don't want to throw you off track because I know you're on a thought process.

[00:06:45] Lucy Rennie: And you know when I get lost off my track, you know what 

[00:06:48] Jo Day: I'm like, come on. But anybody who's employed right now, usually the business has got somewhere stated mission statement, the values of the company. A lot of people who are employed, they're given this as part of their induction program when they come into the job.

[00:07:04] Jo Day: The one week induction, two week, whatever it may be, you're given a handbook and away you go. The values are never really discussed there and afterwards. And if you ask people what are the values, they probably wouldn't know. And I, think in 99 percent of cases of people being asked on the spot, they wouldn't have a clue.

[00:07:24] Jo Day: They'd have a good guess, but they wouldn't really know. How do we move from mission statement, vision and values, or the values of a brand, to people actually Understanding what they are and turning them into something that's tangible that the end result, the customer, the end consumer will feel the benefit from.

[00:07:49] Jo Day: So I think in the previous episode we talked about how people remember how you make them feel, not necessarily what, they bought from you. They might not remember the scooter they bought from you for the 12 year old son. Back in 2010, I don't know. Do you know what I mean? But they'll remember the, how you made them feel and that's how you make them feel is usually what makes them a repeat customers.

[00:08:16] Jo Day: How do we turn words on a website, like strategy store, all these power words are do you know what 

[00:08:27] Lucy Rennie: I mean? No, I do. And I think it's really important and it's such a viable question because And it's predominantly a most of the work that I do with my cl SME clients. So I, actually think that if it's just on the website and in a handbook and it's never spoken about and nobody actually introduces you to it, or if you're not living and breathing them, then I, actually think there's no point in having them, because actually

[00:08:50] Lucy Rennie: there's no substance to it. For me this is why this is really important to start on the inside because actually it's bringing it's even more important, I think, to bring the team in on those. So I, what I will do with my clients is actually get them to check in with all of their team members to actually make sure that they understand what the values mean, but also what that means to the business and to the customers.

[00:09:16] Lucy Rennie: And Ultimately, very often, we end up throwing the old ones out that somebody just written in a in a boardroom out of away from the business. And we actually make sure we bring in the team to actually define them all together based on who they are and what they do and. And, how they're lived and breathed within the organization.

[00:09:37] Lucy Rennie: So an example for that is, recently I've been working with a team where they were really, they were the most amazing business. They do amazing things for amazing people. They actually work on creating parts for vehicles that. Or vehicle adaptation, sorry, for handicapped or disabled drivers.

[00:09:56] Lucy Rennie: So people who maybe have got one leg or one arm or find it difficult to hold a steering wheel. So these guys in this warehouse, in this factory, actually engineer by hand these parts to then go onto the steering wheel or the pedals, et cetera. And so working with the team. We realized that one of the main issues or challenges that they had was that they weren't attracting the right kind of people to come and join the team.

[00:10:21] Lucy Rennie: And so what was happening was they were getting people coming and applying for jobs, just not really knowing what they were applying for. And who actually came down to didn't have the same values as the people in the team. And so they didn't care about quality.

[00:10:35] Lucy Rennie: They didn't really care about going above and beyond or didn't care about teamwork and helping each other. They didn't care about doing a good job of making it safe for the customers. And it was a really, good reminder of how for the existing team, understanding why identifying what your values are really important because it helped to filter out in interviews.

[00:10:57] Lucy Rennie: It helped to, understand why those people that they were recruiting weren't successful because actually they just weren't aligned fundamentally and values didn't have the same approach. So that's on the inside. So really getting people to own those values is really important. But then secondly, from that, what it means is then we can, if people buy into that and they really understand what they mean for the business.

[00:11:18] Lucy Rennie: So in that case it was quality, it was innovation, improving all the time, and it was actually caring and going above and beyond because they have to be safe. They check these parts like 10, 000 times every part to make sure it's safe because they can't afford they're actually making a difference in people's lives and it can't go wrong.

[00:11:38] Lucy Rennie: Once they owned that, then everything else became really simple because actually they could start to tell the story, they could live and breathe it, they could get to it. Testimonials. They could show how actually Lee and engineering really gave actually cared about the quality and he's been doing it for 30 years and it's, gotta be right is what he'd say.

[00:11:56] Lucy Rennie: And so that's when the communication comes from it and we can actually bring the brand to life from the inside out by sharing what, that means and why. And then the magic is because then once we start telling those stories, we attract the right kind of people. So we attract those people who do give a shit, who want to be part of something that makes a difference, that want to be part of a team that cares and it'll go above and beyond and always have each other's back.

[00:12:20] Lucy Rennie: And want to make a, want to make a difference in the world. So it'll attract the right kind of people that you can recruit. So you can grow your business, which is incredible. People are so important in business. It's the hardest thing in the world. It's another topic for another day, but finding an employee and then managing people.

[00:12:35] Lucy Rennie: And the final bit of it is your customers and suppliers and partners, people are going to want to come back to you as well because of who you are on the inside and because of the people that care and because the customer service team they don't even have a sales team, these guys, because actually it's not about that.

[00:12:52] Lucy Rennie: It's about customer service and about going above and beyond and just being there. That amazing support for these people. And that again, comes from that proud pride and that belonging to a team and wanting to everybody we, identified every part of that chain, right from the guy who was buying the parts coming in to the guy who was creating the parts.

[00:13:14] Lucy Rennie: And I'm talking guy people with men and women who were then engineering the parts to then those guys and people going and fitting it. In the customer's vehicles, but those people on the phone or those every part of that chain, everybody knew the role that they played within the business and then the part that they played within the team.

[00:13:33] Lucy Rennie: So they knew, and the impact that they made on that. And that's what I mean by the inside out approach. And if we can nail that, if we can get that and then feed that into the way that we communicate and the way that we interact with the customers. I genuinely think that's the magic pill.

[00:13:50] Lucy Rennie: And that's where we become this amazing magnet that, that You know, time and time again, people come back and they'll talk about in your shop when you love something and you're so excited about it, you shout about it, don't you? Yeah. And you don't want to go anywhere. And you're saying it's because you make, you're made to feel something you're made to feel as if you are that most important customer or that most important employee or that people actually do genuinely give a shit.

[00:14:14] Lucy Rennie: It's just, and it sounds really simple. 

[00:14:18] Jo Day: But for anybody in business now, whether they're self employed or small business, what is the the call to action for them for this episode? What's the actionable step that we need them to take away this week to go and check in with themselves in terms of this inside out approach?

[00:14:38] Jo Day: They might already have values. I know I'm thinking now I'm going to go and have a look. I know my values on the audio and co website. One of them is keep it simple. I need it to be so simple for people and that's keep it as simple as possible for the host to just show up and record and we do everything else.

[00:14:56] Jo Day: Keep it simple. That's one of my core values of it. So I know it and I think I live and breathe it. And one, one thing that you, may have touched on this already is whenever I'm making a decision in the business, I always check back of does it sit with those values? Am I doing the right thing for the customer?

[00:15:20] Jo Day: Does this make, does it benefit the customer in any way? And that's the check back for me. So what's the, what is the, actionable step this week? We've gone really deep already and we're only on episodes. Yeah, but what's, the, I love that we're going to give this value to people straight away, but what's the actionable step?

[00:15:41] Jo Day: What do they need to do after this episode to go and check that they are creating value and creating their brand from the inside out? So they are leaving people with this. warm fuzzy feeling of recommending you, sharing you and becoming a repeat customer. What is that step? 

[00:16:02] Lucy Rennie: Gosh, okay. The first step, and I think we've got to start here, is we've got, it's really reminding yourself of why you're doing what you're doing and what's the purpose of the business.

[00:16:14] Lucy Rennie: Because without that, we can't check anything. So really tap back, tapping back in to what those tummy flips are. What it is that gives you, whether, if you're the business owner, what it, what is it that, got you in the, starting that journey in the beginning and what is it that you your, what is your ultimate goal?

[00:16:36] Lucy Rennie: I would just start there. 

[00:16:37] Jo Day: Okay. Brilliant. Some people might be. It might have been in business for a while. I'm thinking, oh, I don't know if I can do this anymore. This is a great exercise for you to go and do and remind yourself of the tummy flips. What makes you go, want to get out of bed in the morning?

[00:16:59] Lucy Rennie: And this applies to everybody, 

[00:17:01] Jo Day: wherever you are. Even in a nine to five job, go and do this exercise. So number one, what gives you the tummy flips? Yeah, and really tap into those moments when you're buzzing and you're 

[00:17:12] Lucy Rennie: like, oh, that was amazing. What is that? What does that look like? Secondly, I, and we'll pop this in the show notes, Joe, is I've got a document that shares, lists all the different values, all the different yeah, basically a list of values.

[00:17:28] Lucy Rennie: I would put your stopwatch on, so get the list, and I would, Put your timer on your stopwatch. That's fun. Who has a stopwatch today? Phone out and put the timer on and literally limit it to five minutes and either do this for yourself or do it If you've got if you're in a team get your team to do it as well individually and all sit there and for five minutes 

[00:17:51] Jo Day: Can I make a suggestion because this is just how random my head goes I think timers are really boring. So Choose a song. Yes. Okay Of course You've got 2 or 3 minutes of your favourite, high power,

[00:18:08] Jo Day: buzzing song. Now, do you know what I'd do this exercise to? I would do this to the soundtrack of the Benny Hill show

[00:18:14] Jo Day: I would because I'd be like, come on, I'm under pressure, I need to get it done. And then you don't have time to think, you're like literally going, yes, no, and they are the, they. are the most true and heartfelt answers that you're giving. And you can only pick five,

[00:18:29] Lucy Rennie: okay? So I want you to pick just five. What are the most out of all of them?

[00:18:34] Lucy Rennie: And just because you're eliminating them, it's really important to say that, doesn't mean that's not a value true to you. Like we talked about integrity, if you cross off integrity, that doesn't mean you're not. Working in integrity just means that's not what's really like core. You can't what is the main five?

[00:18:49] Lucy Rennie: Yeah. If live or die, these are the five. Come up with those five. And then if it's you and you're a business owner on your own and, it's your business. as a micro business, then that's great. What, and then look at how does that apply? Are they, are you working in alignment with those values? And if you're a team, then discuss those and see.

[00:19:07] Lucy Rennie: And again, that doesn't mean that if you've got different values, that it's wrong. It's about, okay, so we just think of the value then that that, all of those different people around that table bring to your business, because you're all coming at it from different values. And how do you tell that story?

[00:19:22] Lucy Rennie: And then finally, my last question, Or last exercise, if you want, number three. If you were a fly on the wall and you could hear your customers talking about your business. What would you, or your brand, what would you want them to say? And what would you not want them to say? And just check in with yourself to see whether you think actually deep down, and you'll know, you might not say it out loud, but you'll know whether you're confident that people wouldn't say that or that they would say that.

[00:19:50] Lucy Rennie: And just help, that's a really nice starting point to think about, okay, what can we tweak first? Or how can we make sure that we are doing things in the right way? So that people do say the right things that we want them to say. 

[00:20:03] Jo Day: Yeah, I think for me straight away, and I'm just going to my online audio business, so it would be, I'll refer do they say, oh, it's really simple.

[00:20:15] Jo Day: Do they say it's fun we have a laugh. Do they make these kind of statements? 'cause if they do, that's why I'm doing it. And check in with that. Do it. Is it fun? Is it really simple? And, do we have a good laugh doing it? Because You're 

[00:20:32] Lucy Rennie: bringing that to life, Jo, because you're smiling and you can tell.

[00:20:35] Lucy Rennie: So you're and that's the bit, isn't it? It's actually, you can see when it's a line and when it's true and when it makes you feel good because you can see it's written all over your face. So if you saw people saying, Oh, Jo, she's brilliant. She makes me smile. She makes me feel good. She's keeps it simple, takes all the stress away.

[00:20:52] Lucy Rennie: You're happy. They're happy. And that's your brand, isn't it? That's what you're doing. And I think that's a great example of what we're encouraging other people to do. And if you're not already on that journey yet, then it's a great opportunity to think about. And get started on where where you want to go and what your brand looks like.

[00:21:10] Lucy Rennie: And just to bring it full back loop, right round to where we started, where Joe, you were asking me and saying about it being a logo and a strap line. Don't ever go and create a logo or a strap line. So we're not saying that's not important, but actually that is a visual representation. Of your brand identity, which is your vision, your values and everything that you are.

[00:21:31] Lucy Rennie: So normally a creative person, whoever, a graphic designer, whatever, shouldn't be able to do any of that work before they know who you are and what your brand stands for and the values and everything that you want to communicate. So yes, there's a big part from it. It's an important part of your brand because it's what's out there and it's visible.

[00:21:54] Lucy Rennie: but it has to come from the inside first. So just to bring it full back we don't do anything until we've really nailed this part. Yeah. I think, and then 

[00:22:04] Jo Day: What, what, comes next? I know it isn't the next topic that we are gonna talk about, but we need to slot it in somewhere. And I think it is that.

[00:22:15] Jo Day: letting go of this perfectionism. Because once you've established all of that tummy flip moment, it makes you feel good, the customer feels good, your graphic designer or yourself, you've had a go at doing it yourself in Canva. For anybody that doesn't know what Canva is, we'll pop you a link below so that you can go and check out Canva.

[00:22:36] Jo Day: It's a really reasonable graphic design tool for anything really within a small business. It's What I find with podcasting with, podcasting clients is, and you, were guilty of this in your podcast, was The font has to be particular, the color has to be particular, and everything was same sy, right?

[00:23:02] Jo Day: So a lot of my podcast clients the same. And the trap here is, because everything's so perfection, Perfect. It all looks the same. People think they've seen it before. So what we need to create for the visibility is something different, something eye catching. And it might not be your perfect brand colour.

[00:23:22] Jo Day: It might be bright yellow and bright green. But does it stop somebody from scrolling? Does it make somebody read the page on the magazine? And it's still part of your brand? But sometimes we spend far too much time perfecting. I agree with you. Yeah, so that's my little thing. When I say letting go of this perfectionism, you'll never see that from me.

[00:23:51] Jo Day: I'd rather get stuff out there. Put it out there and I'd rather that visibility was there then, not because we're too, busy perfecting stuff. 

[00:24:02] Lucy Rennie: Yeah. No, and I I agree with you, I, but I not, but however, I think it's also a mindset thing. So I think we've got to delve deeper into this and I think it, it's, yeah, I think it's bigger than just not having your.

[00:24:18] Lucy Rennie: So logo in the right way, but I think for today, 

[00:24:21] Jo Day: yeah, 

[00:24:22] Lucy Rennie: I remember mean you were gonna ramble on and on and we're gonna No, 

[00:24:26] Jo Day: but I remember saying one of your, one of your videos that, and I wanted you to come on just share and I remember saying, I, we call Mrs. Me for now, but the audience who are seeing your stuff.

[00:24:40] Jo Day: Don't give a shit. They don't stop and go, Oh, Lucy hasn't used Montserrat font. Ooh. And it's not size 12. They really don't. I completely agree. I have never ever done that on anybody's. I just Consuming content. So that's just my little thought for the 

[00:24:57] Lucy Rennie: day. No, I agree. And I think, again, it comes back to that being who you are.

[00:25:01] Lucy Rennie: And we're going to, I think we're going to talk about this next episode, aren't we? In terms of what makes us stand out in terms of USP. So I think it's a great Oh, she's got it. She's brought it back in. I 

[00:25:13] Jo Day: think that'll be important. So our next episode is about mastering the art of the doughnut and it's finding your unique selling point.

[00:25:25] Jo Day: All will be revealed. Why it's called Mastering the Art of the Doughnut, I'll share more but it is a lived experience. And it feeds into 

[00:25:34] Lucy Rennie: standing out from the crowd, doesn't it? So not being that vanilla. Whatever video or whatever it might be, it's about being you and who you are and and why you're doing what you're doing.

[00:25:44] Lucy Rennie: On that note, let us know. I would love to know how you get on with the Please don't put Benny Hill song on, put something else on. I'll put My baby's in the show notes. But let me know what your tummy flip moments are. What the values are, what, because it's tricky, it's hard, but that's why you need the timer on it to see and then it's Oh gosh, I didn't think and then unpick it.

[00:26:08] Lucy Rennie: And then, yeah, let's see how you get on with the fly on the wall exercise because it's really powerful. And again, you can do that with your team as well or with your customers with, all sorts. See you next week. See you next time. Yep. What's the episode called? How to what with a doughnut?

[00:26:25] Jo Day: Mastering the art of the doughnut. Finding your unique selling point. Sounds, sounds good. All right. See you next week. See you next time. 

[00:26:34] Jo Day: Bye.